How a Career Change Became a Calling That Transforms Lives Through Holistic Pet Care

0:07 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Welcome to Healing Tails.

0:24 Dr. Ruth Roberts: I'm Dr. Ruth Roberts, here to help you become the best pet parent you can be with simple natural care that works for real life, real budgets, and real pets.

0:41 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Welcome back to another episode of Healing Tails. I'm Dr. Ruth Roberts, and this is going to be a super fun conversation because with me today is Joni Kamlett, who has had a myriad of different journeys through the holistic pet health industry leading up to where she is today. But essentially, what we're going to talk about is how a career change became a calling. And so if you don't know Joni, I'm going to tell you a little bit about her, and then we're going to learn a lot more hopefully. So we are talking to a woman that started life as a registered veterinary technician and certified canine rehabilitation therapist with nearly three decades of experience in integrative veterinary medicine. But her journey into holistic care began in 1996, when both she and her beloved dog were diagnosed with cancer.

1:21 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Witnessing the profound healing power of raw feeding, homeopathy and herbs during their shared recovery ignited her passion for holistic therapies. And she has been transforming lives both human and animal ever since. Joni's expertise spans an incredible range of modalities, including nutrition, Western herbal medicine, functional medicine, laser therapy, hospice care, energy medicine, glandular therapy, and her personal favorite, therapeutic mushrooms. She spent a decade educating veterinarians and pet parents about holistic options while working with standard processes and now serves as the director of pet and practitioner departments for real mushrooms, where she continues to build community through education. Joni, I am super excited to be having this conversation with you because I think you are one of the unsung heroes in holistic pet health. So welcome.

2:20 Joni Kamlet: Thank you. I'm honored to be here, Dr. Ruth. I really am.

2:26 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Super. So let's start with maybe the most difficult part of that conversation in that pivotal time in 1996, when you're diagnosed with cancer, your dog is diagnosed with cancer. And I mean, two atom bombs dropped in your life, but how did that experience begin to shape where you are and your approach to health?

2:51 Joni Kamlet: Yeah, that's a great question. And yeah, I mean, in order to go there, I kind of have to give you a little background about where I was before, before the cancer. I was not holistic at all. My life was very different than it is now. I was a bartender for a decade in Washington, D.C. This was like in the 80s and early 90s, and there was a lot of drugs, you know, just really bad, bad, bad living. And at a certain point, I realized that if I didn't kind of clean up my act, I was going to I wasn't going to live. So I I moved to an ashram a couple hours away in Virginia. I was living in Washington, D.C. And it was while I was there that my lifestyle caught up with me, I think. And I was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. They found a, it was an 18 centimeter cyst. It was the size of a six month fetus that was in me. And at the same time, my dog, her name was Waffles. She was diagnosed with mammary cancer. So I had, when I had the surgery, often cysts are not cancerous. So when I went in for the surgery, I said, like, unless you know it's absolutely cancer, don't take anything else, you know, like go and do the surgery.

4:29 Joni Kamlet: And so they went in, they took out the cyst, closed me back up, and then they sent it back, they sent it out to three different labs and it did come out, come back as cancer. And they wanted to do chemo, radiation, go back in, do a complete hysterectomy and stage me for my diaphragm, you know, all the way down to my bowel. And something in me said no. I knew nothing about holistic, nothing like that. And I mean, I'd been living a life, you know, eating 7-Eleven burritos, frozen burritos, that I cooked in the microwave every night. When I got out of the bar, it was like, I was not a holistic person at all. And so I said no. And because I was living in this community where these healers would come to do their yoga teacher trainings, I kind of, you know, oh, and I had to sign an AMA, I had to sign a forum with my doctor that I was going against medical advice, you know, kind of taking my life into my own hands, went back down to the ashram and was like, okay, what am I going to do next? And so they were, they were acupuncturists, they were herbalists there. They were energy healers. I tried everything. And that's how I got into holistic medicine, trying to figure out how to treat myself. Even things like urine therapy, drinking a few drops of your first morning urine every day is supposed to reset your system. I mean, you name it, I did a macrobiotic diet, et cetera. And some of the things that I was doing for myself, I started to do for my dog waffles. And anyway, I'm still here, you know, it's almost 30 years later. And my dog waffles ended up living another nine years with, and I treated her mainly with homeopathy. There was no raw food back then. It just for pets, it, like now we have all these, all these various ways that you can raw feed or home cook. Like that didn't exist back then. There was one company called Sojourner Farms, which, yeah, I think they were, they might've even been in England or something. I remember I would have to mail order this, the Sojourner Farms that you added water and then you added the meat. That was the only thing out there back then. But yeah, so we both thrived and that really changed my life. I was like, Oh my gosh, like this is what I want to do for the rest of my life is share this experience of how you can heal yourself naturally. But I didn't want to work with people that kind of, there was a bit of a factor with that. So, yeah, so I went back to school at 40, I'd become a registered veterinary technician specifically to go into the holistic. Yeah.

7:35 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Amazing. So you have worked with so many different modalities over the years. And so you did the RBT program, you did the rehab program. And then were you seeing some of some different modalities in the practices you were working for? Yeah.

7:54 Joni Kamlet: Well, so when I went to school to become an RBT, I specifically wanted to go into integrative Vet Med. Like, I knew exactly what type of practice that I wanted to work in, but I did, it was eye opening to go and I had to do internships at various vet practices in the Bay area during my training. And it was eye opening to see how a conventional practices worked. So my first real job was at one of the very first holistic Vet Med practices in Northern California called Creature Comfort. And they were doing acupuncture, chiropractic, herbal medicine, whole foods. I mean, they really were back then doing some therapies that are pretty, thank goodness, are becoming more common now. But they really were kind of doing something quite unique. So, yeah, so it was very, I loved it. I was in my element. Yeah. I think seeing the profound changes that some patients that I was working with went through with acupuncture and chiropractic got me really interested in rehabilitation. I think of all the modalities, those, I mean, literally, like I remember the first time I saw a dog brought in, carried in, and acupuncture treatment done, and they walked out the door. Like I literally saw that happen in my first few months in holistic Vet Med. And that, you know, to have something very often when we're treating animals, it's like watching grass grow. You think that there's a difference, but you really can't see it. But what I loved about these modalities is very often you saw a very sudden and noticeable change. And I had the same experience with chiropractic. So I wanted more of that. And that's what drew me to get additional training in canine rehabilitation.

10:20 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Beautiful. And you know, even through your healing process and Waffle's healing process, you latched on to the idea that nutrition truly is the core inner stone of holistic care. And I think you're not working with pets directly so much anymore. But in that process, how did you sort of approach diet and supplementation with pets or for that matter, educating veterinarians about it?

10:46 Joni Kamlet: Yeah. Well, it was interesting because again, back then, I mean, to give an example, I mean, it's so wonderful. We have so many people that are interested. There's a renaissance happening in pet food, pet health, where people are recognizing that it's no different. Like the way that we treat ourselves, we wouldn't eat processed foods. Our doctors tell us not to eat processed foods. Why are we feeding it to our pets? Like that common sense realization is happening. And there are wonderful programs like yours, and others that help people understand how to do it correctly, and then potentially make a career out of it. Back then, there was nothing. And I didn't know a single other technician that was into holistic, like nobody that I knew. And so I think many people listening can relate to this. When you first make this transition, or you kind of come to the realization that, "Oh my gosh, I don't have to give the kibble. And in fact, it's more beneficial to give something else." You want to tell everybody. You just want to shout it from the rooftops and say, "Oh my gosh, I've discovered this. You should be doing this with your pet, yada, yada." And so I was going into these pet practices, like the ones before I went into holistic when I was interning and talking to them. They thought I was nuts. I would typically, I remember going, I would go into a treatment room or like an exam room and the pet parent might show up and maybe they'd have some supplements. I remember one time a pet parent came in and they had their dog and they had some salmon oil. Back then it was just grizzly salmon oil. It was like the only salmon oil out there and it came in a pump. And the doctor took one look at it and tossed it in the garbage. And I was just like, he's like, "Oh, this is garbage." And so I had that experience for about two years of doing internships before I finally got my board certification and was able to do what I really wanted to do, which was holistic. And the ability to be in a holistic practice and listen to how my mentor, my holistic vet, Dr. Jenny Taylor, would teach her clients how to feed was really wonderful for me. And then when I went to the Canine Rehab Center, they were totally Western except for the rehab. And when they wanted to hire me, I was like, "Okay, I'm using... If I can bring these supplements in, if you'll allow me to talk about the way that I feed, if you allow me to bring holistic in." And I was lucky enough that they were open to that. And so I was able to work under direct supervision of a veterinarian, learning how to educate pet parents about not only just the modalities, but nutrition and supplementation. And at the same time, the vets that were in the practice, most of them, I mean, they thought I was nuts too. Like, they call me Woo-Woo, Jony. With her crazy holistic stuff. And some of their patients started to improve. So I was at this rehab center. It was a full service veterinary hospital that also had rehabilitation referral practice. So when there were five veterinarians there, many wonderful veterinarians, one who was very open-minded, but the rest who were not terribly open-minded. But over my years of being there, they saw these unresolved cases that suddenly started to get better when they followed a suggestion to do this or that. So it was great training for me in learning how to work with veterinarians in a way that wasn't aggressive, how to work under direct supervision, the importance in many cases of having that direct. And for those that don't know out there, direct supervision means there's a vet on the premises and you are running stuff by them and treating the patient that way. Indirect is a veterinarian's approval, basically, for what you're doing, but they might not be on the premises. So that really helped frame how I taught. Basically, first it was explaining, and then that turned into education because from there I ended up going to standard process.

15:57 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on.

15:58 Joni Kamlet: Yeah.

16:05 Dr. Ruth Roberts: So really, you were doing health coaching before it was even a thing on the human side. Joni Kamlet: Yes.

16:28 Dr. Ruth Roberts: And that's it. I mean, so that's how some of the holistic pet health coaches have gotten to work with their veterinarians because they're watching their dogs, the coach's dogs get better, and the coach is explaining to the vet, "Well, I did this and this and this." And they're finally like, "That's supposed to get better? What are you doing again?"

16:51 Joni Kamlet: Yes. And honestly, Dr. Ruth, the best veterinarian is the one that says, "How did you do that?" Because over my, literally, I had a decade then at standard process of teaching veterinarians about nutrition, driving all over Northern California, doing what they call Lunch and Learns, educating. And you have the veterinarians that they have their arms crossed, they're like defensive mode. It could be a practice with two vets or 20 vets that I'm talking to. And I always looked for the vets that were the arms cross vets, the ones that were resistant. And my goal was to get that vet to open up a little bit. If I saw them suddenly, the arms go down to their sides, or maybe they're leaning in. It's like, "Okay, something I'm saying is getting through." That's the vet that you want to look for in the practice, the one that has opened this. Also, the vet that has that unresolved case and suddenly gets better. I used to get calls saying, "Hey, we sent a patient over to you guys, and they're doing better. How did you do it? Tell me what you did." The new graduate, the veterinarians that are now the more recent graduates, I think they're more open-minded to holistic because there are more there's more openings. Some vets are even going to vet school that are already doing holistic med, maybe for themselves or for their pets. But there's also those very... Don't rule out those older vets that have been in practice for 30, 40, 50 years. I got many of those vets that were like, "Tell me how you did it." I've been working with this dog for five years. They've had this skin issue, and we've been doing the post-antibiotic therapy. Put the dog on antibiotics for the skin rash. It gets better three weeks after they're off the antibiotics, comes back, so you start it up again. Then suddenly the rash is gone. What did you do? Of course, 99.9% of the time it was diet-related. He just changed what they were eating, added a few things to balance the gut.

19:36 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on. And that's it. At some point, if you're a good doctor and you're in a place in your career where you've gotten to that top level of what conventional medicine has to offer, that's what happened for me. I had an awakening and reached a state of humility that allowed me to take in more information. Some of us old dogs can learn a few new tricks, especially if our heart is still in the practice and bettering how the dogs and the cats live.

19:45 Joni Kamlet: Yeah. If I can just add another thing that I think we often maybe don't consider is that veterinarians... Say you get through to that veterinarian and they have that kind of aha moment and they want to switch over to crock-pet cooking or raw feeding or home cooking, whatever it is. But they've been advocating this kibble for 20, 30, 40 years and they have clients that have been coming to them that have trusted them that have been feeding their pets this. There's a transition. They have to like... There's a lot of... I think there can be a lot of guilt that comes up for them. There's an emotional component to realizing what they have been doing. And what they want to do. And also they have to figure out how they're going to transition. Like how are they going to present this? So again, going back to this place where we get... We discover it. We want to tell everybody. And I think there's a tendency to throw veterinarians under the bus if they're feeding kibble and not take into account all the nuances there. But I saw that over and over again. I had pets crying to me when they came to the realization. And now how do I tell? How do I share with my clients that I was wrong?

21:10 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right. And that's it. I mean, when I made that transition from recommending all the kibbles, the prescription diets, all of that stuff, even though it was better kibble, my dog proved it to me. And so... God. Yeah. So I spent the next three months starting every visit with I was wrong. Yeah. Man, talk about knocking… I mean, what ego I did have was just knocked out from under me. Because to stand in that public place and say, "I was wrong." Here's why and here's what to do. Incredibly painful. But that's the only way to move things forward into a better way for the pets. But you're absolutely right. I think that veterinarians, we want to throw them under the bus because they're prescribing all of these drugs and yada, yada, yada. Well, you're absolutely right. They are so overwhelmed. They don't have the tools or the time to learn a different way. And so when they do, it's something that I imagine that so many struggle with for months or perhaps years before they say, "Screw it. I have got to change. I'm not doing what I promised."

22:39 Joni Kamlet: Yeah. And add to that, they might be... I'm thinking in particular of one case where it was a veterinarian owner of a practice that employed like 25 people between the receptionists and the technicians and the kennel assistants and the other veterinarians and everything like that. And so you come to a revelation, but you're risking putting everybody's livelihoods at stake if your clients have a negative reaction to it. So it's... Again, there's so many different nuances. And I feel like just in general, we need to have more compassion for veterinarians. They have hard jobs. They become veterinarians, as you know, because you love animals. You want to help. You want to be of service. It's competitive to get into vet school. You take what you learn at vet school to be the truth. And then you go out there and you're trying to do your best. And it's a hard life with many benefits, but it's...

23:53 Dr. Ruth Roberts: With many benefits, yeah. But it is. It's hard. And it's hard navigating your way through a different understanding and explaining. And as you said, I'm explaining that because I had 15 people working for me at the time and it's like, "Ooh." So yeah, well said, my friend, well said.

24:11 Joni Kamlet: And good for you, good on you, because it doesn't... Not everybody can do what you did, Dr. Ruth, to not only come to the realization, but as you said, put the ego aside and stay like... Because the veterinarian creed, first “do no harm”. It's like recognizing that you have to make this big transition for the good of your patients and not knowing how you're going to come out on the other side of it. So how wonderful that you did it.

24:58 Dr. Ruth Roberts: That's it. So thank you for bringing that up because we do need to give my colleagues a lot of credit for getting through the craziness that's going on right now in veterinary medicine. And when they find that there is another way to being brave enough to make that change, because it is hard for sure. All right. Well, so we're going way down deep. We're all over the place. Which is awesome. So let's kind of... Ayo has to put her two cents in today. She's got bed head. So let's talk about therapeutic mushrooms, because clearly this is a passion of yours and this is kind of what pushed you into the next part of your career. So how do you feel that these are such a powerful tool in holistic care and how do they support overall health? So let's start with the relatively easy questions.

25:48 Joni Kamlet: Yeah. Gosh, well mushrooms. I mean, clearly I am obsessed with mushrooms and I actually didn't become involved with mushrooms until 2019. So through most of my veterinary career and my career on the human side, because I've also done... I have some certifications on the human side as well. So I never did any work with mushrooms, but it was my colleague that I'd been Lee Carroll, who you know and you've had do some training for you. We'd been working together at Standard Process and MediHerb and he was a brilliant teacher and mentor to me. And I learned everything I know about herbs from him and he became interested in mushrooms. And so I kind of followed his interest and went down the rabbit hole and mushrooms, you know, they're just... First of all, they're functional foods. They're ancient and there's... I truly believe there's a consciousness in mushrooms. When you start working with mushrooms, first of all, you start seeing them everywhere. You start to engage with them. I guess the best way I could say almost energetically. And what mushrooms do is I call them health insurance. They're immune modulating. They're anti-inflammatory. They're anti-neoplastic. So anti-cancer. And this is all mushrooms. It's not just a particular mushroom. There's studies on the human side that just eating a few servings of mushrooms a week or of course taking them in supplement form extends life. Like all causes of mortality, meaning anything that you might die from, you won't. Or you have a better chance of not dying. And that's for everything. And the same goes for our pets. So what I have found with mushrooms is that when taking them or giving them to pets, there's more of a resilience. And this is just... I'm not talking about a medical condition that a pet might have or a human might have. I'm just talking about taking mushrooms on a daily basis for your health. It helps with your immune system. So your immune system feels more resilient. As I sleep better, better mood, calmer, at the same time, more energy, more vitality. And different mushrooms have an affinity for different organ systems or focus on different areas that I'm describing. So once I started working with the mushrooms, and seeing these results, plus they're just fascinating. Like learning the history of mushrooms. And there's tons of clinical studies. Unfortunately, on the human side, not many on the pet side, I basically... I was working for a company, a different company. This was in between Standard Process and Real Mushrooms where I am now. I was working for a company that was selling like five different supplement lines. I was working with humans. I had left the veterinary world for a little bit. And Lee and I were actually... We formulated a mushroom product line for this company we were working for. And I realized through the process that all I wanted to do for the rest of my life was talk about mushrooms. All of a sudden, everything else wasn't that important to me. I knew the benefits of this vitamin or this herb or this supplement. But talking about it and educating it suddenly lost its charm to me because it was taking time away from being able to study about mushrooms and learn more about mushrooms. So that's kind of how I found my way here. And when...

30:10 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Amazing.

30:11 Joni Kamlet: Yeah.

30:13 (Laughter)

30:40 Dr. Ruth Roberts: So it's funny how fate deals you different hands, but what you're doing now with Real Mushrooms is so exciting. And you've said to me privately that you really feel like you're at the top of your game now at this place in your life. So let's talk a little bit about Real Mushrooms and what you're doing there and how you're helping to take all of that knowledge and bring the benefits of mushrooms to pets and practitioners.

30:41 Joni Kamlet: Yeah. Well, so I should say I kind of begged Real Mushrooms to hire me. It's funny how I found my way to real mushrooms. I mentioned the supplement company that Lee Carol and I, the product line that we worked on formulating with mushrooms. We were using Namix mushrooms, which is the parent company to Real mushrooms. And we were working with Jeff Chilton, who's the founder of Namix. And he was doing a webinar for the product line called Third Planet. He was doing a webinar on quality for us. And while it was getting set up, he kind of mentioned in passing that his son Sky was starting a pet line for Real Mushrooms. And like I said, I was kind of like I got into the mushrooms. All I wanted to do was mushrooms. And when I heard that, my ears perked up. And a week later, I contacted Sky and I said, "Basically, your dad's building the beans. I hear you're launching a pet line. And this is what I would like, I really would like to come to work with you. And this is what I would do." And I kind of laid out a whole plan about kind of launching the pet line and what it could look like and the community that should be focused on, et cetera. And darned if he didn't hire me. And we did that. And then after I'd been with Real Mushrooms for a little bit, because of my experience working with Standard Process, which is a practitioner-only company, I ended up kind of working on the practitioner side as well. The thing I love about Real Mushrooms is that there's so much research and development, R&D going on. They're constantly looking to improve the quality and education. Like Sky is a huge... What attracted me to Real Mushroom was the education component. It's not just selling mushrooms. We have Lee, our chief medical herbalist. We have Dr. Rob Silver, who's our Chief Veterinary Officer. And we have Dr. Mason Brissett, who's a nature path and our Chief Science Officer. So these people all work to help teach about how to use the mushrooms, whether it's through our fungi forums or webinars, et cetera, or newsletters. And so I get to kind of oversee that and reach out to people, put together the fungi forums. I joke that I'm really good at connecting smart people to other smart people. That's what I do for a living. And so working with Dr. Silver, Rob Silver has been amazing. And setting up to go to events, different events around the country, I will be at yours, of course. So every day is different. I mean, I do a myriad of things, but the main point being getting the word out about mushrooms, about the benefits of mushrooms for pets and for people, and how to determine a good mushroom product from maybe a not so good mushroom product, because it's kind of the wild west out there. And being as transparent as possible, making sure our quality, we're always in integrity and have high quality products. So I don't know. That's kind of a roundabout answer to your question.

34:18 Dr. Ruth Roberts: But no, no, and that's exactly it. Because I think basically you sold sky on what you could do. And you brought so much to the table with the very vast experiences you've had in your multifaceted career. Joni Kamlet: I know that people. Yeah. Yeah.

34:41 Dr. Ruth Roberts: And you are. You're a great connector, for sure. And I have to say, so you supported us last year in Chicago when we did our first event sort of under rapid fire decision making. Real Mushrooms stepped in. You got Dr. Silver there to speak for us and to help educate pet parents. And just were so kind. And we are so delighted that you're sponsoring again Whole Pet Con, which is in Kansas City this year, September 13. And this time, you get to take the stage, which I'm really excited about. So it's just been the volume of information that is available about mushrooms is beyond vast. And the thing is, is that the way Real Mushrooms educate Dr. Silver, Lee Carroll, you're providing not just one study that proves your point for your product, but multiple studies that educate on how you might incorporate these therapeutic beings into your diet. So that's part of what I love about the company too. Thank you. So this has been so much fun. I mean, you've got such a vast amount of experience. For somebody that's considering stepping into the holistic pet health space to be more of a, more than a coaching or healing modality, what would you suggest to them to start with so that they can take that first step and not feel so much overwhelmed?

36:35 Joni Kamlet: Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, do it. If you're passionate about it and you love it, like go for it. And you're never too old. I'm 64. And I'm still like, I want to work another 10 years at least at this, but I would say, Like spend some time finding, there's so many niches out there. Like for me, it was, well, back then it was holistic and then it was great. And then it was the whole foods and now mushrooms, but there are niches out there that are waiting to be owned, I guess.

37:09 Dr. Ruth Roberts: That's a great way to put it.

37:26 Joni Kamlet: So it's whether you want to go into muscle testing or some sort of energy healing, whether you want to partner with your veterinarian you go to or a groomer or behavior, or like there's just, Spend some time figuring out like what your passion is, like what are you naturally drawn to and how does it relate to pets? And there's probably something there that you can make work, like don't try to do it all, I guess, like learn it all, but then find what you're really, really interested in. Acupuncture assistance. There's another thing, and this might be a little controversial, but in our space, so many people are losing their minds about these cable companies that are now moving into kind of more fresh feeding. I'm blanking on the new... Royal Canine.

38:13 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Royal Canine brought out a fresh food. Yeah.

38:26 Joni Kamlet: So I'm watching all so many people in our community, the influencers that are like just bashing it and losing their minds. I see opportunity.

38:29 Dr. Ruth Roberts: That's a major victory.

38:32 Joni Kamlet: Yes, it's a victory. They're opening up. Yes, it's not as good as you could do it yourself, but guess what? These veterinary hospitals are going to need to learn how to teach their clients how to use it. They're going to need somebody that's going to help. So there's an itch right there. As more and more embrace it, they don't know what they're doing because they've never been taught it in veterinary school. So there's an open space to get in there. And you can maybe like once you're... It's an opportunity, again, to compassionately educate. Don't try to push them all the way over to the other side, but maybe they start seeing benefits. They're like, "Oh, okay. Maybe there's even a better way to do this." And then you're there to guide them through.

39:22 Dr. Ruth Roberts: That's exactly it. It is such a massive opportunity to bring more holistic or integrative concepts into veterinary medicine. And I mean, it's massive, massive, massive change.

39:40 Joni Kamlet: You can hold both. This is not the greatest food, and this is an opening.

39:47 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on.

39:48 Joni Kamlet: Yeah.

39:49 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on.

39:57 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Joni, your story is an incredible testament to the power of holistic care all the way around. So if you had one message you hope that the listeners got today from this conversation, what would that be?

40:13 Joni Kamlet: I guess keep an open mind. Try to stay away from black and white thinking. Whether it's... Allow yourself to feel that passion about whether you're new to this pet healthcare feeding, whatever, or whether you've been doing it for a while. It's a toolbox. Western medicine and holistic vet medicine ideally should work together, and nothing is inherently good or bad out there. There's a lot of gray, and I think we tend to... Our passion drives us to make these very bold decisions and then try to push that on other people. I would encourage that not to happen, to look at all the sides. Like kind of an example being that veterinarian that has to make that choice, giving them the space to make that choice to switch over and not just saying the veterinarian is completely wrong and bad.

41:20 Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on.

41:25 Dr. Ruth Roberts: We don't do well with shades of gray as humans, do we?

41:26 Joni Kamlet: We do not.

41:30 Dr. Ruth Roberts: We want the black and white, dang it. Yeah. Right.

41:56 Dr. Ruth Roberts: So, Joni, thank you again for joining. For those of you that have been listening to Healing Tails, there'll be more amazing episodes coming soon. So stay tuned, check it out on my webpage, drruthroberts.com forward slash podcast. Got some amazing episodes already. And until next time, take care of your puppies, your kitties, your doggies, your cats. Give them all a big hug. Thanks for listening to Healing Tails where pet parents become healers, one tail wag at a time. Want more tools and support? Head to DrRuthRoberts.com. Until next time, trust your gut, question the noise, and keep showing up for your pet.