Sustainable Solutions: How Hemp Heroes is Changing the CBD Game

[0:00] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Welcome to Healing Tails

[0:04] Dr. Ruth Roberts: I'm Dr. Ruth Roberts, here to help you become the best pet parent you can be with simple, natural care that works for real life, real budgets, and real pets.

[0:16] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Good day. I'm Dr. Ruth Roberts. Welcome to another episode of Healing Tails. With me today is David Hartigan, the founder and CEO of Hemp Heros, Ireland and Europe's leading seed to shelf hemp company. And now they're coming into the United States, which is super exciting. So the thing that's really unique about Hemp Heros is that they have a very innovative cold press technology and their commitment to sustainability. So super excited to have you in with us, David. You've also introduced organic mushroom tinctures under your sister brand, Mush & Company. And before all this, you spent over six years as a business consultant at PricewaterhouseCoopers, one of the, I don't know, what is it, the big four now in terms of accounting firms. Yeah. Yeah. And you were recognized as Ireland's top 30 under 30 entrepreneurs. So welcome. Glad to have you here.

[1:22] David Hartigan: Yeah, no, thanks so much. I'm absolutely delighted to be on the podcast. So really appreciate you inviting me on.

[1:28] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Happy to have you. And so, I mean, so how did you end up going from accountancy and business consultancy into hemp for dogs and cats? I'd love to hear this story.

[1:40] David Hartigan: Yeah. So funny, when I look back now, I've been in the pet industry just over seven years. And I probably would have never imagined myself being in this industry. So as you've kind of rightly said, my background is kind of more business, business consultancy. So I've always been fascinated with business even as a kid. So I was very entrepreneurial as a child. And I ended up doing a master's degree in business consultancy. And I then joined Pricewaterhouse, and it was during my second year in PwC. That's, I kind of created a little bit of a side hustle managing professional fighters. So going from managing professional fighters, I got them sponsored by CBD companies. And that's how CBD really came on my radar. So the athletes in particular, we're using obviously human products for recovery, for sleep, for inflammation. And we've seen kind of an application here for pets. So at the time, John had used CBD very successfully on his own dog, who had severe arthritis. And the dog was at the point where he was actually put on Tramadol painkillers, which are very ineffective for most dogs and don't work. So after that didn't work, the vet essentially was out of options said, "Look, there's not really much else I can do. You probably maybe got to consider putting them down.” John actually put them on CBD and got two more years out of them. So I'd seen firsthand the effect of good quality CBD. And the reason why I decided to start my own company, when I got the products for two of the fighters, the quality was absolutely dreadful from the branding, the packaging, the quality, everything. So when I got the products, I was kind of a little bit dumbfounded about how low the quality was and how everything was nearly a kind of cut and paste job. So when I looked into it more, I realized that 99% of the brands out there aren't manufacturing their own products. And we initially did start as a white label product. And then thankfully, over time, we've actually brought that manufacturing back in house.

[3:38] Dr. Ruth Roberts: That's amazing. I mean, so is that kind of part of how you used your experience as a business consultant to build hemp heroes and navigate the challenges of entrepreneurship? Because it certainly is not for everybody.

[3:52] David Hartigan: Yeah, no, absolutely. So I kind of tackled it from a similar perspective that most big four consultancy firms go in, they're given kind of a scope of, "Here's our problem. Help us develop the solution. Help us implement the solution." So kind of, I suppose I followed a similar road here in terms of identify the problem that the vast majority of products in the market were near identical. There was no real outliers with quality. So that's our problem. Where's our solution? Okay, we want to look for a manufacturer who can help us bring something to a higher quality to the market. We ended up finding that actually in the UK. And then the overall long term goal was if we knew if we want to play a long term role in the industry, we would have to be manufacturing because otherwise, you're at the mercy of your supplier. And they could say tomorrow, look, everything's gone up, your prices are now double. And then you're passing on onto your customer, which just isn't fair. So we really want to be at the source. At one point, we went so far as to try to grow our own hemp, which I think I told you the story was a complete disaster. So we rented two acres of land in Wicklow, which is just outside of Dublin. And it's a lovely area where you're in the mountains, really nice. And wild deer ate all of our hemp.

[5:04] Dr. Ruth Roberts: So they were feeling outstanding, I suspect.

[5:09] David Hartigan: Oh, yeah, the healthiest deer in all of Wicklow, I'd say. And so they had two acres of starting to grow hemp that they essentially had eaten all the tops of the plants off. And I learned very quickly then that deer can jump up to seven feet high. So deer fencing has to be extremely high and it's very expensive. So at that point, it was pretty much a lost cause.

[5:29] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Wow, that's a painful experience, it sounds like. But yeah, you contributed to the health of the deer population there. So one of the things that makes your hemp products so unusual is the cold press method. And when we met each other at the natural pet expo in Birmingham in April, you handed me a pot and I'm looking at this like, wow, okay. And I had to be fair, I had seen some of this in Slovenia, Trieste. But I mean, it looks like black tar. So talk about that process and what the difference is between that and say an extracted product.

[6:05] David Hartigan: Yeah, absolutely. So initially, when we did start off, we did have a CO2 extractive product. And the more I kind of looked into manufacturing and how CBD products are made, I wasn't exactly comfortable how some of the products are made with solvents. So I know now the process is a lot cleaner, but in particular, if you're using ethanol, you obviously want to make sure there's no ethanol in the finished product. So the more we looked into it, the more I kind of decided, okay, is there a way that we can do this without using any chemicals and even more sustainable. And that's how we actually developed our cold press method. So in a nutshell, if you want to make it in very simple terms, cold pressing is using high pressure and low heat. So you're essentially crushing the hemp plants to release your cannabinoids. And we found that extremely effective for a number of different reasons. Firstly, obviously, your cannabinoids, your terrapines, your flavonoids, they are heat sensitive, and you don't want to put them under extreme heat. Otherwise, they will get damaged or converted or destroyed. So because we're not using any chemicals or heat processing, we're keeping them in their natural form. So one of the really cool things about our products is we have natural levels of CBDA. Now, CBDA is the precursor to CBD, and that A is the acid molecule. So how that gets converted is true heat. So generally, with most solvent extracted products, you're going to have very little to no CBDA because it's all been converted through heat.

[7:32] Dr. Ruth Roberts: And that's true because I mean, so there have been many of the products in the US to have CBDA, then you're adding back in... An isolate. Exactly. Yeah, an isolate, yes, or an extraction. But still, that's another step.

[7:46] David Hartigan: Yeah. Yeah. And what we do is it's naturally already there. So what a lot of other brands do is they try and really recreate what nature does already. So with our CBD oils, we have a full range of cannabinoids. So we'd have a 60-40 split between CBD and CBDA. You'd have your minor cannabinoids like CBG, CBN, CBC, your trace element of THC, which would be actually below 0.2, which means it's covered for European standards and it covers US standards. Then you'd have your range of terrapines, flavonoids, also your natural plant fats. So that's why our oils look really dark. So I can show you here, I have a bottle, I'll give you an idea what it looks like. So you can see here how dark our oil is. It's like an engine oil. And if you talk about it logically, you would actually expect this from a dark green plant because hemp is a big tall green dark plant, nearly similar in color to spinach. If you put spinach in a blender, you'd expect it to come out this kind of a color, not the yellowy clear colors that most people are used to because most of the stuff you see in the US is this kind of olive oily color. And naturally, you can see there that if they get it from that dark color to that olive oily color, some processing has to take place. And it's during that processing and that, I suppose, heat treatment and different treatments they do, you're going to convert a lot of your cannabinoids and actually, I suppose, make it less effective, essentially.

[9:12] Dr. Ruth Roberts: And certainly, so I mean, one of the big things that most hemp companies will talk about is the entourage effect. And that happens, but with a cold press, you're literally taking all of the plants, all of the terpenes and all of the good stuff, but also probably a lot of phytochemicals that we're not even thinking about in terms of how that would assist in terms of modulating the endocannabinoid system.

[9:38] David Hartigan: Yeah, completely. And you would even have even the natural vitamins that are in the plant because when we cold press, you lock everything in. So you're not missing out on anything. And it means then you're getting real bang for your book. And unfortunately, this is a real education piece because when you say to people and say, look, it comes from a dark green plant, you would expect a dark green oil and they look at ours like, okay, that makes sense. Then they go, well, hold on a minute. I've always been told the clearer the oil, the better the quality. So like, he was telling me the truth here. And even at Global Pet Expo that we've done earlier this year, we had someone who came over to our stand and we showed them our product. They were like, Oh, that makes perfect sense. They were like, another stand just across the way. Said no, no, the clearer the product, the better. And I was like, well, if it looks like water and it comes from a dark green plant, that's been ultra processed. And I can nearly put money on it. You're buying CBD isolate. And like isolate is the most refined version. You've removed all of them on our beneficial compounds, which you discussed. And you've only CBD left. And CBD isolate is so cheap to make because it's so ineffective. So you could get a kilo of CBD isolate powder at the moment, probably for around four or $500. One gram of that powder makes it 1000 milligram tincture. So it means that the company is making a tincture in terms of their CBD, I suppose the ingredient cost is a half a dollar. And they might be selling you that for $50 for a finished product.

[10:59] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Yeah, that's the thing that's really interesting. And I mean, so margin is what makes a business run, but I feel like some of the margins are a bit excessive for many of the brands. Oh, yeah, big time. Yeah, right on. So, one of the things we started talking about is you have a seed to shelf approach. And so you try to grow. Yeah, and that didn't work so well, the deer sort of put you down. So what is that then if you're taking a seed to shelf approach?

[11:31] David Hartigan: Yeah, yeah. So instead of, I suppose rather than being hemp growers ourselves, we decided we'd leave that to the experts. So what we do is we work directly with raw organic hemp farmers, we bring in that raw plant material, and then we manufacture it into finished products. So we work with farmers in Ireland and Europe and across the US who are all certified organic. That's one of our key criteria is that in Europe, we're already fully organic certified. And our goal for later this year is to be USDA organic. And interestingly, European standards are actually a lot higher than USDA organic. So if we can ask a hurdle, I imagine we can get USDA organic pretty easily.

[12:09] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Yeah, it's very interesting. So that's really cool. So then you work with the farmers to decide which varieties you want and that sort of stuff. And then literally, you're watching the process every step of the way. Exactly.

[12:23] David Hartigan: Because you've got to consider pretty much 90% of brands in the US are white label, private label. So they don't manufacture their products. And the vast majority are absolutely not working with raw organic hemp. So in most cases, the brands are either getting the product completely finished by a third party and essentially putting their label on it, and then selling it to the customer. And they have a lovely story about how they started the brand, but they don't really know what's in their product. Or they may be buying essentially their distillers, their isolates and their oils. And essentially, they're a bottling operation where they bottle the product, and then they put their label on it, where we're much closer to source and that we're bringing in the raw hemp. We make sure all of our hemp is third party tested for its cannabinoid levels, its heavy metals, its pesticides to make sure it's clean. It should naturally be clean already because of the fact it's organic certified. And we'd have results coming from the hemp growers. We would then essentially produce our product, which would be our raw, I suppose, raw oil, that again is tested. And then it's formulated. And then a SKU from each of our products is again, third party tested. So you've testing at the source of the hemp, testing when we make our bulk ingredient, and then testing on the individual SKU level. So we've three factor testing, which is probably the best you could do by testing every hundred products, which would be far too expensive.

[13:47] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Yeah, that gets hideously expensive in a hurry. So that's really interesting.

[13:53] Dr. Ruth Roberts: If you were to, If you're creating this product literally from the biomass and bottling it, some of your products, like the one that I use for Haya, which really worked well for her, by the way, you've got in a salmon oil, which is an unusual choice. So talk about how you're choosing to, how you're blending the oils. That's interesting.

[14:17] David Hartigan: Yeah. So we decided to go with salmon oil because our products are cold pressed. They do have a bit of an airy taste in them. So we wanted to make sure they were palatable for pets. So we use natural salmon oil. And in Europe, we've actually gotten that fully certified organic. And because the salmon oil that we use is such a high grade, and our goal in the US, again, with the US probably in Alaskan salmon oil or something of a really good quality that has a good shelf life. And again, we'll give that palatability and it also has some extra amigas in there, which are good naturally for the pets already.

[14:47] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on, right on. Cool. So you mentioned already that you're expanding into the US. So are your products now available for sale in the US market or you're still working on the bits and pieces?

[14:59] David Hartigan: Yeah, so we're still working on some of that at the moment. And we essentially had kind of two options. We could have manufactured the product here in Ireland and shipped it to the US, which probably would have been the easier option. But we really want to make a long term impact in the US. So what we've actually decided is to set up manufacturing in Buffalo, New York. And our plan is to manufacture in the US for all of our US products, which means it's just much easier. It's made in the US, there's no logistical issues, there's no tariff problems. And we can actually store raw materials from the US. So we're actually giving back to the economy. Because one of the things that we're really proud of in Ireland, we're part of an organization called Guaranteed Irish, which is essentially a recognition that you support the local economy, we want to do the exact same in the US and eventually be hiring people and I suppose providing jobs and employment to the US.

[15:53] Dr. Ruth Roberts: That's awesome. And that's really that, we can say a lot of bad things about capitalism, but that's a good facet of capitalism that we forget about is that when we're responsible business owners, we're actually looking after our local folks. Exactly. Good on you.

[16:12] David Hartigan: Sorry, to your point as well, in terms of our products, we do have them listed in certain locations a moment. So our new mushroom tinctures, they're actually available through Chewy. And we're working with some of the other independent pet stores at the moment to get our CBD and our mushroom range listed. So our goal is to really kind of expand into that kind of B2B market, get into as many independent and local, I suppose, pet stores as possible, and really sell our products that way. And then we will have our online coming as well very soon.

[16:40] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Cool, cool. So let's talk a little bit about the mushroom products. So you were telling me a bit, but so the mushroom company, you've got a whole range of organic mushroom tinctures. And you take a very unique approach, actually, you were telling me, instead of three, four, five different mushrooms, you're using one, maybe two per tincture.

[17:03] David Hartigan: Yeah, so I suppose the reason why I got into the CBD space was due to my concerns around quality and trying to bring something better to the market that would give people value for money. And it was nearly I suppose a repeat of history when I looked at mushrooms. So how I actually got into the mushroom space, my mom two years ago got diagnosed with breast cancer, it was actually in July of two years ago. And I think you got to meet my mom at the end. So my mom is absolutely fantastic. And she's doing brilliant now. And she's gone through all of our chemotherapy or radiation and our surgery. And when she got the diagnosis very early on, I said, Okay, look, we're going to throw everything in the kitchen sink at this to make sure she beats it. And when I looked for things on how to improve her immune system, her overall well being, and mushrooms came up time and time again. And when I looked at products out in the market in Europe, to be honest, again, I was quite dissatisfied with the quality. So one of the mushrooms I got my mom on very early on was turkey tail, which is brilliant for breast cancer. And there's a lot of really interesting research around that. I know Paul Sammel has his own story with his mom, who used turkey tail quite successfully for her own breast cancer. So when I looked at the products that were there, all I could find was raw mushroom powders. And the more I delved into the mushroom space, I quickly realized that mushrooms have a very thick cell wall called chitin. And unless you break down that chitin, you don't really unlock your polysaccharide or beta glutens, your terpenes, which are really the benefits in the mushroom. And that's why traditionally, a lot of these mushrooms come from Chinese medicine and would have been consumed as tea because the hot water would have essentially activated them. So when I looked at this, I went, okay, right. Well, the vast majority of products in the market are raw mushroom powders. They're essentially dehydrating the mushroom and then turning the powder, which is a very cheap and ineffective way. And you can buy a kilo of lions mane powder for probably about 60 or $70. If you buy it in bulk, and then they'll then sell the end customer maybe 100 grams for $80. So the margins are astronomical. And the customer doesn't know any better because they're not educated enough. So that's why when I saw it, we said, okay, look, let's bring something really good of good quality to the market so that we can educate customers. So all of the mushrooms we have are dual extractives, which means they go through a water process and an alcohol process, which really breaks down the cut and unlocks their benefits. And then we decided we put them in tincture format to help with the absorption, because naturally liquids are much better absorption than powders and capsules.

[19:38] Dr. Ruth Roberts: What's your tincture base? Is it a glycerin or alcohol?

[19:42] David Hartigan: Yes, it's an organic glycerin. So we decided we'd, I suppose, avoid alcohol for obvious reasons, especially with pets. And although it is safe in small degrees, we decided we want to do it as clean as possible. So what we've done is we found really good partners in Europe to do organic mushroom extracts. And for example, our lion's mane is a 15 to one extract. So 15 kilos makes one kilo. So it's a very potent extract. Our turkey tail, I think, could be a 20 to one. And the ratio is a 15 to one that we're using. So we've really good high quality extracts that we're using there then formulated with our organic glycerin. And then to give it extra functionality, we've added in natural botanicals. So with our clarity for pets, which is our lion's mane tincture, we've actually gotten the ginseng in there, which again, are really good natural, I suppose, adaptogenic herbs.

[20:34] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on. And interestingly, in Chinese medicine, those two herbs are part of the four gentlemen, which is one of the foundational formulas for spleen chi deficiency. And so the spleen basically is the digestive organ in Chinese medicine. Spleen ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. So it's interesting. And then the other, so licorice is the other component and then poria, which is a different type of mushroom. But that's used more for drying up dampness in the spleen. So basically, you've got two thirds of sujensitang or four gentlemen in that tincture. And lion's mane, of course, is known well for its cognitive improvements. That's awesome.

[21:23] David Hartigan: Yeah. And then we've made two other products. So we have our turkey tail, which has turmeric and black pepper to help with the activation. And that's more kind of immune support. And then we have reishi with passion flower and valerian roots. Again, more for calming. So we've kind of tailored them towards different functions. Now we are working on some new ones. So at the moment, we're working on cordyceps, which is more the kind of energy mushroom. And we're looking at using macaroos and possibly rhodiola.

[21:49] Dr. Ruth Roberts: That's interesting. Maca, especially, because we think about that in terms of hormone balance for people, right? And one of the things that I feel that our dogs especially deal with is because they are spayed and neutered so early in the United States, they are thrown into andropause and menopause almost immediately. So that'll be interesting to see how that benefits those pets that are suffering from spay and neuter syndrome. But that makes a great deal of sense. Yeah, absolutely.

[22:20] David Hartigan: And then the other thing as well. So what I've kind of seen in the US market in particular, a lot of the products out there are just raw powders. There's very few extracts. And when I have came across extracts, there are very low levels. So I think our closest competitor would have in around kind of 25 to 30,000 milligrams per tincture. And our products have 150,000 milligrams. So by far they are much more potent. And value from money wise, they're actually the same price point is kind of the leading kind of, I suppose, market competitor. So we're not charging the end customer for something that's five times more potent. And it's not five times the price. And the reason why we can do that is because we're directly at source, we're bringing in these raw materials, which are all organic. And then we're manufacturing them into the finished product. So we've cut out a lot of that kind of waste and fast, which means we can pass that cost savings on to the consumer and to our retail partners.

[23:18] Dr. Ruth Roberts: That's amazing. I mean, it's a fantastic business model. And I think that's really important to understand too, right? Because there's this raging war between a fruiting body only or mycelial products and really where the active ingredients are, are in the fruiting body. And if you do a proper extraction process, and especially if you're getting to like 50 to one with your turkey tail, that's incredibly potent.

[23:46] David Hartigan: And sorry, 50 and yeah, not 50.

[23:50] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Oh, 15. Okay. But still, that's a big whack. Because most of them are like one to one or four to one something like this.

[23:57] David Hartigan: Yeah. Yeah, no, no, completely. And then your point is well, technically in Europe mycelium is actually not allowed in products. And because it would be a novel food, which is more of a European regulation. So we only use 100% fruiting bodies for that reason in particular. And then also, as you said, that's where mainly most of the benefits are in terms of your beneficial compounds. It's in the fruiting body. So all of our mushrooms are 100% fruiting body, where I've seen a lot of other products. And it's probably a word of caution for other people if they do pick up a mushroom product, always check the back of the pack for other ingredients. And I've seen in some products where it'll say odor, and it'll say myceliated oats. And in that case, what's happened there is they've used oats as the substrate to grow the mushroom. And now they've probably essentially dehydrated everything, chucked it all in the blender and powderized it. And now you're buying a bag, which might have a small amount of fruiting body, a ton of oats in their mycelium. And you're going to pay $20, $30. And it's going to do effectively nothing.

[24:56] Dr. Ruth Roberts: You mean the oatmeal won't provide the same benefit as the mushroom compounds? That's just shocking. And that's the problem, right? Because there's so much marketing hype that's designed to keep the consumer confused. And that's part of why I like what you're doing, because you're clarifying as much as you can, as you go along. And that's the difficulties. Most of the products that I've seen in the past, they'll list the ingredients, but it's a proprietary formula. So you don't know actually how much of which is in there. And you also have no idea of the extraction strength of the mushroom product itself.

[25:40] David Hartigan: Exactly. And naturally, if they're doing it the right way, they want to shout it from the rooftop, because for us, we're doing dual extraction, which is far more expensive. And we're using extraction ratios of minimum 15 to 1. So naturally, you're going to put that on your pack. So if they're not doing that, that's probably a red flag. And that it's probably not to the same potency, because if they were doing a 15 to 1 extract, they would be telling absolutely everyone about it.

[26:04] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on. So I've heard some companies talk about triple extraction. What the heck is that?

[26:10] David Hartigan: Yeah, I've heard of triple extraction. Usually they use ultrasonics, which is the third part. So they use ultrasound to kind of break down the molecules. And it's nearly kind of similar to nano CBD, where they kind of “nanoparticlize" I suppose, the compounds. To be honest, I'm not really that familiar with that space. And I have seen some, I suppose, conflicting results that potentially could be unsafe, because I suppose our bodies aren't used to nanoparticleized material going in there. So like in particular, with CBD, there was a lot of talk in the last year or two around if it is safe for your endocannabinoid system, because it's not coming in in a natural form, it's now been essentially made into a much smaller molecule. And the absorption technically is better. But would that mean you could potentially take too much without even realizing?

[27:03] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on. That makes sense. And that's it, right? Because if your absorption goes from, say, 15%, just pulling a number out of the air to 40%, then yes, then the system could get overloaded. And then would that actually deliver the correct specific molecule? Or is the molecule going to be different than the natural extracted one?

[27:29] David Hartigan: Exactly. And that's what I mean. There's a very, I suppose, there's a lot of unknowns. Like, you wouldn't have nanoparticleized orange juice, you just drink orange juice. So I understand the logic behind it to make it more effective. But I think sometimes things in their natural form, our bodies and our pets bodies are used to using them that way for the last thousands and thousands of years. I think sometimes we don't have to recreate the wheel and taking them in their natural form is just as good.

[27:56] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on. Cool. Now, one of the other things you've done with hemp heroes is you're a member of the Pet Sustainability Coalition, as well as the Cannabis Veterinary Society. So how did you choose? Well, the Veterinary Cannabis Society, I think that's pretty obvious, but talk a little bit about the Pet Sustainability Project. That's a really cool group.

[28:16] David Hartigan: Yeah, so I got introduced to the Pet Sustainability Coalition, an event I go to in Europe every year. And they actually gave a speech at the event. And it really resonated with what we're doing. Because one of the reasons I got into the hemp industry was around how sustainable hemp is. So when I, I suppose, came across CBD through the athletes, and then I looked into how CBD was made. And then I obviously realized it was hemp. I really went deep into the history of hemp and how it's been used for thousands of years. And just the rich history there, like even during World War Two, the whole hemp for victory campaign, like there's a fascinating history with hemp. And why it's so sustainable. If we were really, I suppose, wanting to do something about sustainability and lowering carbon emissions, hemp is nearly like a God given gift to solve a lot of the problems. And it's just so often overlooked, where like we go after these high tech ideas, when hemp can take out more CO2 out of the atmosphere than trees, it can be used for paper, for bio plastics, there's so many use cases for it. So when the Pet Sustainability Coalition came along, it really resonated with some of the things they're trying to do in the pet industry, which predominantly wouldn't be, I suppose, the most sustainable. And like there's a lot of issues in the pet industry around packaging, being single use plastic, even how the products are sourced, manufactured, made everything. So when I got speaking to the team, it really fitted in with our, I suppose, ideology and ethos. And we decided we join. So during that time, I think within that year period, we actually became B Corp certified, and which again, is another huge achievement. So for anyone who doesn't know what B Corp is, and I always kind of say to people, B Corp is like nearly an Olympic gold medal for sustainability. And it's that highest recognition. And from a third party that you do meet certain criteria around sustainability. Now, the really cool thing about B Corp is they really look at your business and a 360 approach. So it's not that you spend an X amount of money on carbon credits, and now because you're carbon neutral, here's a plaque. It's not that by any means, they look at how you source your product, how you manufacture, how you treat your staff, your policies, your procedures, what your suppliers are like, where they source their material, and every part of the business, even how you actually what you do for the local economy, the local environment, how you give back, it's a full 360 of your business. And then essentially, you're graded on a number of different areas. And the process took us a year to complete. And then at the end of it, we had enough points to actually become B Corp certified. So we were the first HEM company in Ireland, the UK to get B Corp. And the first PEC company in Ireland to get B Corp certified.

[30:59] Dr. Ruth Roberts: That is a hell of an accomplishment, because that is an incredibly grueling process from what I've read. Yeah. With other business owners. It's like, Oh my God. So well done you.

[31:12] David Hartigan: Yeah, no, it's not for the faint heart. It's not a pay to play system. So you really have to have all of your ducks in a row and make sure you have the right policies, procedures and foundation to be as sustainable as possible. And once you get B Corp certified, that's by no means the finish line. That's more so the starting line. And then the idea is over time to improve further and further. So in Ireland, we've just moved into a bigger manufacturing unit. And our goal now is to actually start looking at solar energy to hopefully be as solar dependent as possible, which means we're even using less electricity from the grid.

[31:49] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Amazing.

[31:52] Dr. Ruth Roberts: So we go into business to make a product to help pets get better. But truly, it sounds like your vision is to have gone into business to help pets get better, but also to help the planet along the way. So that's, and you're walking the talk, right? Because we can talk about sustainable packaging in the US and that makes us feel better. And then we're done. But the truth is, is that the whole aspect of the business, you know, where's the sourcing, the production, all of that plays into if we are truly sustainable or not. Yeah, absolutely.

[32:26] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Yeah. So the wellness industry is, is, has always evolved really rapidly. So where do you think the future of pet wellness is going? And how do you see hemp heroes fitting in or leading the charge for change?

[32:42] David Hartigan: Yeah, I think it's evolving quite quickly. If I look back to when I got into the industry in 2018 to now, I think consumers are demanding a lot more. And thankfully, they're getting a lot more educated, because what I always say is that a customer who's educated is a dangerous customer. And they know exactly what they want. And I think that's what we really need. Because unfortunately, there's still a lot of maybe not so good actors in the industry, which can nearly get one up on the customer by them not being educated. So the more educated and informed customers are, the better purchasing decisions they can make, and hopefully make the right ones. So I know there's a lot of other really good quality food supplement and different brands across the US. And I'd say they're very much in the same line of thought that as the industry evolves, people look for higher quality, they'll be more informed. So if you look back to 2017 and 2018, if a product had the three letter CBD on it and nearly sold itself, now customers are a lot more clued into, okay, how is the product made? What type of CBD is it? Is it a CBD isolate? Is it a broad spectrum? Is it a full spectrum? Is there any other ingredients in there that I should know of? Do you have any nasty preservatives additives? Was the hemp source organically or is it conventional? Is there heavy metals? These are all questions customers are starting to ask now. So I think that real pep pairing 2.0, which is kind of the new term being thrown around, I think that's going to come more and more to the forefront and people will demand more and look for better quality, and I suppose better value for money. And that's where we really want to step into that void where we feel like we can give people the quality and the higher quality that they're looking for without breaking the bank. And that's kind of the whole point here, because if we are four times more expensive than the leading brand, we may be the best quality and the best sustainability, but we've outpriced ourselves from the consumer. And that's what we don't want to do. We don't want to be unattainable for the customer. We want to make sure that we're still affordable, but give them the true value for money.

[34:43] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on. And I think that's so crucial because a lot of folks will start pet brands. And the end goal is to just sell it and make a boatload of money. So good on you. Because what happens is the average pet parent whose average pet could really benefit from the products never gets the chance to utilize them because they're just not affordable, as you said.

[35:04] David Hartigan: Exactly. And in comparison, the really interesting thing with our products in the US, so if I look at, say, our 500 milligram tincture, and the goal long term will be that it will be USDA organic. We've obviously got our B Corp certification, it's cold pressed and its full spectrum. So our recommended sales price on our 500 milligram tincture is 59 to $60. So we say $60. In comparison to some of the other products in the US, I've seen products go as high as $85. And some of them would even be broad spectrum or even isolates. And they're not cold pressed. They've no sustainability credentials around B Corp certification. And it would be nowhere near the quality level, yet they're 20 to $25 more expensive. So that's where we really want to fill that void and give people that true value for money. And that's where I think we can really fit in nicely. And also educate the customers that they can make their own decisions that even at the end of the day, if they say, look, we actually don't want to use your product, that's completely fine. But at least don't pay for something that's cheap and ineffective, and then come back and say, Oh, I tried CBD and that didn't work. And it's because you got a very low quality product because I know hands down when you get a good product that works, it absolutely will make a positive impact on your pet's life. It's just finding that right brand, that right quality.

[36:25] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on.

[36:26] Dr. Ruth Roberts: So if you had a few words of wisdom to somebody that was an aspiring entrepreneur, especially in the pet space, what would those be?

[36:37] David Hartigan: Oh, and we can probably be here all day. Yes. And what I would say is, I think people sometimes get into business for the wrong reason. The reason why I started hemp heros as a machine co was very much on the base of trying to give people value from money and solve a problem which I identified. I think some people look at it from the opposite way and say, how can I make the most money? And they all make a business around that idea. So if you're solving a problem, people will naturally pay for that problem being solved. And I think money will come second. So although we probably could agree a lot quicker and took shortcuts, we built a foundation in the right way. So if you want to do things in the right way, sometimes it will take time. So for any aspiring entrepreneur, I would say don't rush things and cut corners because in the long term, it will have a cost where you do something you're passionate about that you like and you enjoy. Because at the end of the day, I could work some weeks for 80, 90 hours. Some days I'm working literally night and day, weekends. And there could be some weeks where I've worked two weekends in a row. And now I'm on a 14 day stretch. If I was doing something just for money, there's no way you will stick at it. At some point, you're going to go, no, it's not worth the squeeze. I'm done. I tap out where if it's something you're truly passionate about, and you can really see the longevity in it, you will stick at it and it will become your passion. And people always say that if you work at something you love, you never work a day in your life. And maybe not to that degree, some days are tough. But it does help doing something that you're passionate about and something you actually enjoy.

[38:09] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Amen to that. That is the truth. David, this has been a lot of fun. Before we sign off, can you please let folks know where they can find you and your products?

[38:21] David Hartigan: Yeah, absolutely. And sorry, before we sign off route as well. And I just wanted to mention about the studies that we're doing because I think people might find that really interesting. So one of the other things that makes this very unique, and again, you've got to consider the vast majority of brands on shelf don't manufacture their products. So when it comes to doing clinical studies, very few brands are going to put that money in for mainly two reasons. One, they don't actually own their ingredients. So even if they do a study, they can't really claim it's theirs, it's a third party. And secondly, it's very expensive. So you're hardly going to spend all that money to basically do the research for someone else. So what we've been doing for the last four years, we've been working on Ireland's largest veterinary university, which is called UCD. So UCD would be essentially the premier veterinary college in Ireland, and the vast majority of vets in Ireland got trained there, and then they'll go off into different practices. So we've been working with them on a clinical study to actually prove our cold press CBD helps with pain management for arthritis and dogs. And that study lasted, I think it ran for 18 months. So the way that we designed the study, initially, we did want to use a force plate to get force plate analysis. But UCD doesn't actually have a force plate, and they're quite expensive to buy, which became a little bit of a tricky situation. So what we've done instead was we use the Helsinki pain index and deliver pill methods for measuring pain. So the way the study was designed, it was a double blind control placebo. So half of the dogs would get product A, and then half would get product B and essentially would then swap. So it was six weeks on product A or B. One of the products would have been our cold press CBD. And then the placebo in this case was hemp seed oil, which would have had essentially no cannabinoids. So six weeks on product A or B, a six week washout period, which meant they have absolutely nothing in their system. And if in the event they got the CBD first time around, it would mean there would be no cannabinoids left there to affect the second round. And then they would swap to the opposite product. So what happened there was the vets were impartial and the pet owners, so they don't know what product they're being given. It's completely randomized A or B. And it means then the vets could actually take an assessment and pet owners could do their own individual survey of how their pet is moving, what their behavior is like. So after the study was completed, across the board, we saw a reduction in pain, better movement, better mobility, and actually better overall, just overall kind of, I suppose, feeling for the dogs that they were just a lot more calm or relaxed. The actual pet owner said they just found that they were a lot more settled. So the results of the study should be published later this year. And our goal is actually to get that paper published in the American Journal of Veterinary Medicine.

[41:14] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Cool. Ajov. Yeah. And that's really interesting. I mean, that's tough. So in the dogs that had the hemp product first, I mean, that must have become clear pretty quickly when they went off of that and got the second and got the placebo product.

[41:28] David Hartigan: Amazing. Yeah. And that actually causes some issues because in some cases they knew which one they had, which was the CBD. And because it worked so well, they actually wanted to remove them from the study and put them back on the CBD, which caused a few issues.

[41:43] Dr. Ruth Roberts: I bet it did. Yeah, that's the trouble. Yeah, it's interesting. I know that that's a tough situation when you're doing real science. But the downside is that the pet or the person ends up suffering because the thing that was working is withdrawn.

[41:58] David Hartigan: I know. Yeah. And the good news is because that study went so well, we've actually completely changed the mind of the veterinary college and UCD. So now they're actually teaching CBD to their vets and to the students. And we've got a second study. So because the first went so well, we started a second study looking at how our cold press CBD can help with anxiety. And in that study, we're actually measuring their cortisol levels and blood samples.That would be a really interesting study that's ongoing now. So that would probably run for the next year. And I think we'll have 50 dogs hopefully in that cohort. So we'll have, again, a double blind control. So we'll have them before any product on the placebo and on the CBD. So we'll be able to get a complete baseline level and then obviously compare across the other two.

[42:47] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Sweet. Cool. Amazing stuff and good for you for making the investment to prove that your product is indeed making the difference and for opening veterinary medicine's eyes to what CBD products can do.

[43:03] David Hartigan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think more vets will come around. It's just getting that research behind to show it's safe and effective. And there is something here. It's not snake seed, it's not snake oil. Once you get a good quality product, it does work. I think just unfortunately, the industry nearly gave itself a bad name for a lot of time due to the low standards initially. And hopefully that is changing and there's kind of people are bringing their own standards like the way we are to really drive the industry forward.

[43:32] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Right on. Be the leader by example. That's amazing. All right, David, where can folks find you? Let's do that one.

[43:40] David Hartigan: So you can find us on hempheroes.com. So the way we spell it is H-E-M-P-H-E-R-O-S. So you'll find all of our products there. And you'll also see we do a full range of human products. So all of our products are there. If you have any queries or I suppose your interest in learning more, you can also get us by email. So you'll find our email on our website. And we also have Instagram. So it's just @hempheros, all one word.

[44:08] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Wonderful. Cool. David, thanks so much for spending time and talking about really the unique structure you've put together with these products. And for those of you that are listening, stay tuned. We'll look for the next episode coming up. We'll have some more amazing speakers helping you help your pet in a more holistic fashion.

[44:29] Dr. Ruth Roberts: Thanks for listening to Healing Tails where pet parents become healers, one tail wag at a time. Want more tools and support? Head to DrRuthRoberts.com. Until next time, trust your gut, question the noise, and keep showing up for your pet.